george brought me to the liz pelly talk last week through greenlight books. i quit spotify after (george already did after reading the excerpt in harpers) and we finally brought his record player to be fixed :)
I don't understand what the issue is. Spotify is a service that you can choose to use if you enjoy it, or stop paying if you don't. If you're a musician you can choose to upload your music or not. Nobody is being forced to do anything they don't want to. If I find ambient chill playlists enjoyable why should I care if it's all some dude using alias making a quarter of it?
I think you're blaming the algorithm for doing what it's designed to do and that is present you with other music you'll probably like to keep you listening. If you aren't having fun listening to music there, I think it has more to do with how you're interacting with Spotify than it does with Spotify itself. Digging in with the tools the app gives you to find new stuff has turned me onto a bunch of new artists, but also searching things I hear about in other places and exploring from there has been really good for finding new things. But it all has to do with how committed you are to it.
And there are ethical questions about using anything made any of the major tech companies, Spotify isn't an exception here.
SAY IT LOUD AND SAY IT PROUD. The more people that leave Spotify the better. An underrated reason: it’s 2025 and they still don’t offer lossless streaming. One quibble with your Apple comment about the recommendation algorithm. That is a positive, it means they are not a data mining company. We should separate music discovery from music distribution otherwise we get right back to some of the problems with Spotify. There are countless great ways to discover music that contribute more meaningfully to connection and community. Too much convenience can be a bad thing…
It's a great read, and just as I get ready to delete my account. If anyone else is, I have used services like 'spotlistr' over the years to export my playlists.
My listening habits were never dictated by their algorithm; I'm an 'album guy'. I never viewed listening to Spotify as my final interaction with the creatives as I buy records and attend concerts. BUT, I live in London, a location where most bands will pass through. AND, I have the discretionary funds to purchase these luxury goods.
The creeping “enshittification” still impacted my user experience. How streaming devalues the listening experience certainly impacts how people behave at concerts. The ties to warmongers raise questions of complicity in late-stage capitalism. Not to mention how this gorilla* treats artists who are already under strain from every economic force.
*A friend in the industry said that musicians viewed streaming services like gorillas on their backs. It took all I had not to say, 'Sounds about right'.
The quitpost thing carries plenty of validity behind it vis-a-vis Spotify, but whenever the reasoning gets itemized, and one of the most common reasons is algorithmic reaffirmations or falling victim to ruts, I pause. I’ve tried many streaming services. Every one does something akin to what the dominant one does. It almost seems that frustrations hinge on recommendations being great until they’re not so great and then they’re vexingly bland. That’s like anything overdone. It’s done with foods. Is it the foods’ fault? It’s strange to me that if a service’s discovery engine is pissing someone off, the whole catalogue is crap. Mix it up. Unpin the defaults. Search for something else. Try new genres. Explore reviews off site. Companies push what they want to push, but that doesn’t mean you have to eat it. If you accumulated saved playlists or songs or albums, channel your own history and revisit faves. Create a station off a song. Never before has there been such easy access to so much music you are probably going to enjoy. Yes, Spotify has plenty of faults. Unfortunately, the business model of streaming, regardless of who pays most per play, means that the long tail feels the brunt while the big acts take the bulk while also simultaneously understanding that streaming isn’t the sole bakery producing their bread. For listeners, they’re all rentals. Hertz might shaft you one too many times, but that doesn’t mean Avis is going to answer prayers. A grand exodus on principle would be awesome. It just seems like choosing one malicious landlord for another with a different design sense. Both can bug you out.
If you can get your hands on an old functioning iPod, honestly nothing beats it! A way to listen to music on the go without connecting to the internet feels positively luxurious.
Thorough and sharp, with a devastating conclusion. Thank you for collecting all of these pieces, for sharing your views, and for adding more context. This shit is important, and the participation, or opting out, of each and every one of us is important!
I'm like a few others here in the comment section and I don't rely on Spotify (or any other algorithm) to suggest new music for me. It has been my experience that the best way to discover new music is the same way people have done it for decades and that's suggestions by other fans. All algorithms do is suggest music that's already really popular in that genre. So, chances are, I've already heard it. The music I WANT to discover is music from people who are keeping the genres I like alive.
That's certainly the promise of Spotify for the artists - that they can find their audience no matter what genre they play. But that connection has never happened for me.
What DOES work for me (and where Spotify comes in) is being part of various online music communities where I can ask real people for suggestions. THEN, based on their recommendations, I turn to Spotify to listen to a new artist I've never heard before.
Despite their promise of a better world, algorithms still can't emulate real fans who can discern what's new and what's good. Only fans can do that.
Yeah! Use those other platforms that literally do the same things, or worse… but seeing as Spotify is the only one talked about, you’ll feel like you’re making a difference!
My favorite album of the past few years came out in early 2024 and famously was not available on any streaming service <link to streaming service it’s been on since its release>
Bandcamp is LITERALLY a streaming service.
This is why I can’t ever take these conversations seriously. No one seems to understand any of the words they use — they’re just repeating what’s popular… like some kind of bad take streaming service.
Besides the sketchy payout system (huge issue not to be discounted) is the main argument against Spotify as a shoddy recommendation service? What if you aren't using it for its recommendations and curated playlists? What if you're doing your own searching and curation and using it solely as a listenable library?
Also, did we know Spotify had audiobooks?
I'm coming at this as an actual new paid user of Spotify. I resisted streaming services for years before the market became too saturated and I became interested in previewing without downloading. Every Friday I go through new releases and have recently been using Spotify to search and preview. I will often then buy what I like to own. Maybe not how most are using the service but I find it interesting the criticism of Spotify causing music brain rot from those relying on it for recommendations... And I feel like that eliminates some of the fun of the personal search anyway.
This was very thorough, thank you. I have been trying to find new ways to discover music and directly purchase from artists and second hand stores. It’s hard to leave behind the ability to discover new music on Spotify. Nothing else seems to compare :( I have enjoyed using Needle, which is relatively new. But I was disappointed that it requires Spotify to use.
I generally agree with this essay and left Spotify last summer for similar reasons. I now stream at Qobuz. I’m also a recording artist, publishing under many different names due to working in different genres.
“Per stream” entered the vernacular thanks to the clickbait “journalists” who couldn’t begin to explain anything complex, much less tell the truth. The only thing that is “per stream” is US internet radio as dictated by the three judge panel of the US Copyright Royalty Board.
You lost me temporarily when you complained about only earning 94 cents from Spotify. I don’t see the point of that diversion. My royalty income on Spotify went down after the “1000 streams per calendar year” threshold because I generally make niche, slightly avant-garde music. I could care less how much I earn from Spotify now and will probably stop distributing to them in the future. Their thresholds will surely be raised until niche and beginner artists are totally demonetized.
Liz Pelly’s book is so good and informative. And to the above comment and Netflix and being spiritually the same, I would love digital experiences built by algorithms are all in the same family. We relinquished control of cultural ties for convenience and now here we are. A lot of us foot soldiers still crate dig and buy used photography books. Wrote a bit about this in my recent newsletter.
george brought me to the liz pelly talk last week through greenlight books. i quit spotify after (george already did after reading the excerpt in harpers) and we finally brought his record player to be fixed :)
https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-49/essays/casual-viewing/ if you haven't read this yet, i highly recommend. what's going on with netflix is obviously very different, but feels spiritually the same.
The Pelly effect! Have not read this n+1 piece thanks for sharing
lol did YouTube pay you to write this?
I don't understand what the issue is. Spotify is a service that you can choose to use if you enjoy it, or stop paying if you don't. If you're a musician you can choose to upload your music or not. Nobody is being forced to do anything they don't want to. If I find ambient chill playlists enjoyable why should I care if it's all some dude using alias making a quarter of it?
I think you're blaming the algorithm for doing what it's designed to do and that is present you with other music you'll probably like to keep you listening. If you aren't having fun listening to music there, I think it has more to do with how you're interacting with Spotify than it does with Spotify itself. Digging in with the tools the app gives you to find new stuff has turned me onto a bunch of new artists, but also searching things I hear about in other places and exploring from there has been really good for finding new things. But it all has to do with how committed you are to it.
And there are ethical questions about using anything made any of the major tech companies, Spotify isn't an exception here.
SAY IT LOUD AND SAY IT PROUD. The more people that leave Spotify the better. An underrated reason: it’s 2025 and they still don’t offer lossless streaming. One quibble with your Apple comment about the recommendation algorithm. That is a positive, it means they are not a data mining company. We should separate music discovery from music distribution otherwise we get right back to some of the problems with Spotify. There are countless great ways to discover music that contribute more meaningfully to connection and community. Too much convenience can be a bad thing…
It's a great read, and just as I get ready to delete my account. If anyone else is, I have used services like 'spotlistr' over the years to export my playlists.
My listening habits were never dictated by their algorithm; I'm an 'album guy'. I never viewed listening to Spotify as my final interaction with the creatives as I buy records and attend concerts. BUT, I live in London, a location where most bands will pass through. AND, I have the discretionary funds to purchase these luxury goods.
The creeping “enshittification” still impacted my user experience. How streaming devalues the listening experience certainly impacts how people behave at concerts. The ties to warmongers raise questions of complicity in late-stage capitalism. Not to mention how this gorilla* treats artists who are already under strain from every economic force.
*A friend in the industry said that musicians viewed streaming services like gorillas on their backs. It took all I had not to say, 'Sounds about right'.
The quitpost thing carries plenty of validity behind it vis-a-vis Spotify, but whenever the reasoning gets itemized, and one of the most common reasons is algorithmic reaffirmations or falling victim to ruts, I pause. I’ve tried many streaming services. Every one does something akin to what the dominant one does. It almost seems that frustrations hinge on recommendations being great until they’re not so great and then they’re vexingly bland. That’s like anything overdone. It’s done with foods. Is it the foods’ fault? It’s strange to me that if a service’s discovery engine is pissing someone off, the whole catalogue is crap. Mix it up. Unpin the defaults. Search for something else. Try new genres. Explore reviews off site. Companies push what they want to push, but that doesn’t mean you have to eat it. If you accumulated saved playlists or songs or albums, channel your own history and revisit faves. Create a station off a song. Never before has there been such easy access to so much music you are probably going to enjoy. Yes, Spotify has plenty of faults. Unfortunately, the business model of streaming, regardless of who pays most per play, means that the long tail feels the brunt while the big acts take the bulk while also simultaneously understanding that streaming isn’t the sole bakery producing their bread. For listeners, they’re all rentals. Hertz might shaft you one too many times, but that doesn’t mean Avis is going to answer prayers. A grand exodus on principle would be awesome. It just seems like choosing one malicious landlord for another with a different design sense. Both can bug you out.
If you can get your hands on an old functioning iPod, honestly nothing beats it! A way to listen to music on the go without connecting to the internet feels positively luxurious.
Thorough and sharp, with a devastating conclusion. Thank you for collecting all of these pieces, for sharing your views, and for adding more context. This shit is important, and the participation, or opting out, of each and every one of us is important!
I'm like a few others here in the comment section and I don't rely on Spotify (or any other algorithm) to suggest new music for me. It has been my experience that the best way to discover new music is the same way people have done it for decades and that's suggestions by other fans. All algorithms do is suggest music that's already really popular in that genre. So, chances are, I've already heard it. The music I WANT to discover is music from people who are keeping the genres I like alive.
That's certainly the promise of Spotify for the artists - that they can find their audience no matter what genre they play. But that connection has never happened for me.
What DOES work for me (and where Spotify comes in) is being part of various online music communities where I can ask real people for suggestions. THEN, based on their recommendations, I turn to Spotify to listen to a new artist I've never heard before.
Despite their promise of a better world, algorithms still can't emulate real fans who can discern what's new and what's good. Only fans can do that.
I started manually buying albums from band camp, and installing them into a mp3 player. Absolutely made my music experience feel more personal
Yeah! Use those other platforms that literally do the same things, or worse… but seeing as Spotify is the only one talked about, you’ll feel like you’re making a difference!
My favorite album of the past few years came out in early 2024 and famously was not available on any streaming service <link to streaming service it’s been on since its release>
Bandcamp is LITERALLY a streaming service.
This is why I can’t ever take these conversations seriously. No one seems to understand any of the words they use — they’re just repeating what’s popular… like some kind of bad take streaming service.
Besides the sketchy payout system (huge issue not to be discounted) is the main argument against Spotify as a shoddy recommendation service? What if you aren't using it for its recommendations and curated playlists? What if you're doing your own searching and curation and using it solely as a listenable library?
Also, did we know Spotify had audiobooks?
I'm coming at this as an actual new paid user of Spotify. I resisted streaming services for years before the market became too saturated and I became interested in previewing without downloading. Every Friday I go through new releases and have recently been using Spotify to search and preview. I will often then buy what I like to own. Maybe not how most are using the service but I find it interesting the criticism of Spotify causing music brain rot from those relying on it for recommendations... And I feel like that eliminates some of the fun of the personal search anyway.
This was very thorough, thank you. I have been trying to find new ways to discover music and directly purchase from artists and second hand stores. It’s hard to leave behind the ability to discover new music on Spotify. Nothing else seems to compare :( I have enjoyed using Needle, which is relatively new. But I was disappointed that it requires Spotify to use.
I generally agree with this essay and left Spotify last summer for similar reasons. I now stream at Qobuz. I’m also a recording artist, publishing under many different names due to working in different genres.
“Per stream” entered the vernacular thanks to the clickbait “journalists” who couldn’t begin to explain anything complex, much less tell the truth. The only thing that is “per stream” is US internet radio as dictated by the three judge panel of the US Copyright Royalty Board.
You lost me temporarily when you complained about only earning 94 cents from Spotify. I don’t see the point of that diversion. My royalty income on Spotify went down after the “1000 streams per calendar year” threshold because I generally make niche, slightly avant-garde music. I could care less how much I earn from Spotify now and will probably stop distributing to them in the future. Their thresholds will surely be raised until niche and beginner artists are totally demonetized.
Liz Pelly’s book is so good and informative. And to the above comment and Netflix and being spiritually the same, I would love digital experiences built by algorithms are all in the same family. We relinquished control of cultural ties for convenience and now here we are. A lot of us foot soldiers still crate dig and buy used photography books. Wrote a bit about this in my recent newsletter.
https://open.substack.com/pub/adlcworld/p/is-technology-making-us-lose-physical?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web